Evolving Leadership, Online Conversation
Leadership, Evolving
From a participant on our advanced leadership forum ( to join the EBA click here
Seeds is a six year old church plant in a small community in Altona...Manitoba, Canada.
Ted (husband) and myself are the lead planters...
We just took the month of July off...for pure rest (ahhh) and time with our kids (not quite pure rest!)
The month of August for the two of us will be spent listening/praying/connecting with our lead team...we sense we're at the cusp of another change/breakthrough in the church/community!
Ted and I have been releasing more and more of the things that we have been involved in the past, and we need to do even more of that to allow the congregation to move to a deeper level.
We've been marked as a community by generosity and grace...both things we never "set out" to do.
I feel like I need new tools. The leadership required to plant the church is different than the leadership required to move this unique community to the next level. To be honest, I've wondered whether I'm the right leader for this next phase...what's my fear??
I'm interested in hearing insights from those who've planted...and are a few years in. How has your leadership changed/evolved?
From Bill Easum
Darlene, I didn't plant but I restarted a church with 19 people which is very similar and grew it to beyond 1100 in worship over 24 years. During that time my leadership styles had to change four times. During the planting stage I had to spend most of my time in visitation (almost five days a week), visibility in the community and an all around jack of all trades - even doing the youth ministry so we could spend more on a worship leader. In hindsight I would have spent much more on a worship leader sooner. I went to all of the meetings. During this time you could say I pastored the church.
Someone where around 250 I had to begin spending more time equipping staff to equip church leaders rather than do it myself. I had to pull away from as much pastoral work as possible and spend more time vision casting and working with key lay leaders mostly in groups. The hardest skill I had to learn was how to find, chose, and equip gifted paid staff.
During this time you could say I pastored the paid staff and key lay leaders.
Somewhere around 500 I realized that my primary duty was to equip the staff and let them equip the lay leaders. At this point I pulled totally out of visitation of almost all kinds including members. During the time you could say I was the pastor to the paid staff.
Around 1,000 I worked primarily with four key paid staff and one lay committee who had oversight for the whole church. My primary function then was removing any barriers in the way of staff reaching their potential, casting vision, pushing the leadership beyond its capabilities, and making sure that the community life of the church flourished.
During this time you could say that I was the pastor to four key paid staff. These four were worship, business manager, evangelism, and lay mobilization (for us small groups)
Each stage was a challenge. I think the key question for you is - was I called to be a founding pastor or a church planter. if founding, then stay there for life and develop the skills; if planter, then leave and plant more churches
I hope this helps.
bill
Response
Thanks.
We started with 15, and we're around the 180 mark right now. I have been making the transition you talk about in the 250 mark, spending more energy on equipping leaders...and the congregation is noticing it....because it's a small community, the line between leader/friend has been tough...."I thought we could just get together as friends"...oooh...i've developed relationships and friendships, so when I pull away from some situations, they feel they've lost a friend. Tough place for me, but I'm learning, and I've got an awesome team of leaders that's really behind us! I NEED to keep listening to the voice of Jesus that keeps me on the track He has for me in this area. I must admit that through the last year I have probably spent less time with "un-churched" folk than I have previously...that's not good. But...I see others in our community spending MORE time with those on the fringes...native people in particular, and the poor. We have become a depot for the poor....
We hired a worship director last August, and that's been fabulous! I am so grateful for the vision and leadership that person is giving, and how much it's freed us from stuff we don't need nor want to do!
This last winter was extremely tough for me. Increasing numbers meant increased need and challenge. Lots of crisis, and I was losing confidence in my ability to lead. I was getting to the point of trying to stay above water, instead of swimming out to deeper waters, confident that I was ready for the challenge. I was taking more "hits", and I was just plain tired. So this month off has been much needed, and I feel my heart pumping up to get back in the game. I'm ready. I don't think Jesus has released me from this place. I don't know if I'm a founding pastor or a church planter. I just know I'm not done here yet. I don't know if I have what it takes, but I'm praying somehow I'll be given whatever it takes. Is that naive?
Response
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Bill, this is what I need more on. I know the next thing we need is a lay mobilizer/small groups minister. I’ve met him. I know who it is. I want him on staff. He’s an outsider to the town and denomination. If I’m holding back something right now, its saying, “Church, we’re hiring this guy.” There are so many layers of organization to even get a new position on the slate, much less getting budgetary approval and a personnel committee up and running. I’d much rather hand to the personnel committee this feller and say, “Hire him.”
Ugh.
Deep down, I know I’m going to do it, but it won’t hurt to know how you did it.
Jay it came to do this. We had a staff person that needed to fired and the committee wouldn't do. So I bugged them every day, literally, on the phone telling them how bad the situation was. They didn't want to because they loved him. Finally I wore them down and they said, Okay you fire him. I said Fine as long as you allow me to hire and fire everyone from now on. They said okay. It took about a year.
Response
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Bill, this is what I need more on. I know the next thing we need is a lay mobilizer/small groups minister. I’ve met him. I know who it is. I want him on staff. He’s an outsider to the town and denomination. If I’m holding back something right now, its saying, “Church, we’re hiring this guy.” There are so many layers of organization to even get a new position on the slate, much less getting budgetary approval and a personnel committee up and running. I’d much rather hand to the personnel committee this feller and say, “Hire him.”
Ugh.
Deep down, I know I’m going to do it, but it won’t hurt to know how you did it. >>
From Bill Easum
Jay it came to do this. We had a staff person that needed to fired and the committee wouldn't do. So I bugged them every day, literally, on the phone telling them how bad the situation was. They didn't want to because they loved him. Finally I wore them down and they said, Okay you fire him. I said Fine as long as you allow me to hire and fire everyone from now on. They said okay. It took about a year.
Response
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your insights – where I find myself really challenged is that while we have 400 + in the church, this is made up of three Sunday morning congregations (one off-site) and two house churches and I find I am living between being the ‘Pastor to the church’ and being the ‘Pastor to the leadership’ because the congregations are (Sunday figures) 160 / 80 / 30 / 10 / 12 and so while the 160 size congregation is more about pastoring the leadership, the 80 size congregation is in tension, because it is the emerging new congregation – the other three smaller ones are more easily led as I basically pastor the leaders of these smaller ones. My best guess/thinking at this time is to focus pastorally on new people to the 80 congregation and keep working on developing leaders + trying to care for myself and young family at the same time. What do you think? Plus are there any warning bells or rather things that I really need to pay attention to in this kind of context.
Regards
Peter Armstrong
From Bill Easum
Peter, If the 80 congregation is the new one I wouldn't focus pastorally on them or they will expect you to do it forever. Respond to the new people the way you need to at 400 in worship. Your leadership base should emerge from all three congregations. If all of your leaders are in the other services, work at raising up a few leaders out of the new congregation. They will be some of your best leaders really soon.
Don’t think you have three congregations. You only have one congregation. This is a fallacy a lot of pastors make as well as lay leaders. they only see the number they see at worship. That is why you need to constantly remind them of both the vision and the number of people they are responsible for.
Does this help?
Response
guess I’m wrestling with when is it too soon to release people into leadership and went is it not soon enough? Any wisdom? I am currently doing some accountability groups and spiritual discipline groups with our 10am but not any intentional leadership development – although we have plans for this as well. I’m probably just feeling things at the moment with seeing the need and dealing with the reality of low leadership availability – as I am typing I can see that I think I need to re-orientate our existing leadership into this priority area…hmmm maybe that is it?
Thanks for the head space. Any comments from anyone would be most welcome.
From Bill Easum
There isn’t a hard and fast rule. what is spiritual depth for one pastor is shallow for another. Here is what I see the most.
Thriving churches usually have a hierarchy (I know I don’t like the word either) of leadership.
The idea is the quicker someone is in ministry the quicker they mature spiritually. Some have ministries for non Christians, day old Christians, maturing Christians and leaders.
here is a leadership tip from me dating back to 2001. Its in the community resources. I think it will help you.
"Most church leaders don't think of leadership in terms of levels. We tend to think more of finding volunteers or even servants. Instead I want you to begin thinking of multi levels of leadership and to begin to ask which category your leaders might fall into. I have discovered the following levels. There may be more.
The first is Leaders of leaders. These are the people who lead other people. I'm not talking about pastors of congregations, but the many people in your congregation who have the potential to be leaders of other leaders. These are the apostles and mentors. They know how to help others grow. Just being around them causes one to expand the horizons. Often these folks are on the edge of institutional life or beyond it. It is not unusual for them to break the rules just to break the rules.
Next there are leaders of teams or small groups. These people are excellent at facilitation and collaboration. They hold up a clear standard and assist a group of people to achieve far more than they thought they could. Although this skill is close and may overlap with leaders of leaders, this type of leader inspires and assists more than mentors. Lots of creativity is needed here. Often, these folks do not do well on committees or within tightly supervised environments.
Next there are leaders of programs. Organization and supervision are their skills. These leaders like a well defined responsibility. They are able to organize details and volunteers. Creativity and organization is needed here. These folks need to be able to see how the program fits into the big congregational picture.
Then leaders of committees. Administration of the institution is the key here. Not much creativity needed, only people who know how the system works and how to work the system for the benefit of those in ministry and are willing to work on behalf of the common good of the congregation. The fewer leaders being used in this category, the more likely the congregation will do better in the new world.
Finally, there are leaders of task forces. These folks are given a short term task to complete. No creativity needed, just hard work. Often these folks could easily move up the leadership ladder but time won't permit it. Many may be people who travel certain times of the year.
The next time you think about finding more leaders, what kind of a leader are you looking for?
The key to being a good identifier and recruiter of leaders is to sense who is in the right place and who is capable of leading up the ladder of leadership. "
From Tom Bandy
Darlene:
Bill's comment here illustrates the implication of organizational change parallel to leadership change. Here is a template:
churches under 100 use personnel committees (often tied up in denominational polity requirements);
Churches 250 and over replace personnel committees with executive limitations and training teams, but give the pastor authority to hire and fire all staff (paid and unpaid);
Churches 500 and over have to develop a human resources team, because the pastor alone cannot keep up with volunteer empowerment;
Churches over 1000 reorganize management to work with staff who are especially trained and deployed to grow, train, and deploy servants ... and senior staff now have power to hire and fire junior staff within their spheres of influence. Pastor steps back to hire and fire and nurture senior staff.
The entire process for the pastor is a continuing experience of "distancing" himself or herself from tactical management ... toward strategic direction ... then toward control intervention ... then toward long range visioning ... and so on. For the organization it involves increasing "differentiation" between leadership development and tactical management.
From Tom Bandy
Darlene:
In my view, there are two parallel things that need to evolve ... your leadership, and also the congregational organization. Initially, organization can be very simple and task driven. But as the church grows, the purpose of organization has more to do with maintaining mission focus and boundaries. Unless you help your organization make that shift, they become to task oriented and expect you to be in the midst of tactics, when you emerging role is to be more involved in broad strategies and leadership development. If you feel overwhelmed ... or if you feel driven by crises rather than visions ... part of the solution is to recreate your organizational model. And the key in this is that you have to strongly differentiate between board functions for visioning and management functions for equipping and coordinating. As a senior pastor, you have to move away from management and see your primary partnership with visionary board.