Shaping of Things to Come, By Alan Hirsch
From Bill Easum
A week ago (March 2005, I sent out an email about the book The Shaping of Things to Come. In the email I said that it was a book that would challenge most Christians to the wall. The bottom line of the book is that the postmodern church will be found mostly in the workplace rather than the institution as we know it. What follows is some conversation around the book
From a Participant.
I think we need to have more discussion around this sort of thing, especially in the context of Church plants. Recently we have been leading our church in a relocation process, and have found that few are sympathetic to the Christian cause. Imagine how things will be for church planters in the future. 5,10, 20 years from now.
Why not open a business and use the facilities in off hours for a church. Create a business and create a traffic flow bringing in the community.
A Response
Hey Doug:
This is possible and we see this in coffee houses. But what I am seeing is that the business is the church. There are no services or traditional style things happening that we see as normal for a church. But instead it is entirely relationship…my friend in Katy does not attend a traditional church…his business is the church…
Let me give you another example. A guy I coming to know has opened several Christian book stores. And he is the one that created
“Not Of This World.” A big deal in Southern California, I see it everywhere. He has made great money in his old profession and had a passion to connect with people that do not know God. So he started the book store.
Last year one store…he has around six…he is shooting for nationwide…saw over six hundred salvations…they post each salvation on a board in the store. To give you an idea of the intensity of this place…a buddy of mine that works for Family Life lives near me…he was at the store talking to a kid that manages the place…as they were talking the kid said excuse me…but I feel as though this guy does not know Christ…the kid walks out of the store and begins talking to this guy on the street…he brings him into the store and shows him a book and begins to tell him about Christ…
Over six hundred people came to know the Lord…we are a around 3000 and saw close to six hundred a year ago…which is low for a church our size…we should be seeing closer to 1700 with the size we are…
But my point is that the church will not be the same twenty years from today. The next market in publishing is going to be how to support the new church…how to bring health and growth to those they win for Christ…
I am really wondering what Sunday mornings will be like when God finally allows me to have a church…
Response
Bill worte:
Phil, there is some evidence that points to the fact that house churches and small groups result in more christians than all of the mega churches combined. The evidence is not scientific nor quantifiable. It is just the best guess of some very knowledgeable people including me.
However, that is not to say that mega churches arent going to be around for awhile. I think there is room for both and that the postmodern world will be filled with the double ring Sweet talks about, in this case very large churches and very small churches. the difference between this century and the next is that there will be fewer really big churches, but they will be bigger and the small churches will be healthly and vibrant whereas most small churches arent today. I think churches the size of skyline with either grow beyond 10,000 or decline. that is what Im beginning to see now.
Response
Hey bill…I am sure your data is correct…and I am sure that any church over fifty years old will decline unless they stay fresh and willing to take risks…
Maxwell was very risky and able to turn the ministry over to great leaders that stayed with him to this date…
I do not say this to be rude or disrespectful but my make up sees a church the size of Skyline (2800-3000) as a small church…I think the mega church needs to be defined as five to ten thousand or more and not 2000 or 3000…
I am afraid I do not have as much confindance as you do in the smaller churches becoming healthier anytime soon. Most are very old and have a membership or attendance of 100 or less…there are some great leaders out there…but the environment they find themselves in is killing them…
Maybe if the mega churches change their movment and begin to plant smaller churches some of that could change…but even in the book Shaping of things to come they says planting is failing as well…
Even Leadnet.org and crew have abandoned the planting phase and investing in multi-site venues…which is probably the new role of mega churches…
I don’t see the mega church as declining but perhaps as monolplizing…
(a dark cloud is forming): The evil thing in my head is screaming “We could take the church and merge it with others until we all work for twenty to fifty huge churches that are just multiplying…(my business mind is drooling at the thought) We could go to wall street and be traded…:0
(the cloud lifts): Ok I am back…Again this is old school thinking…multi site…it is just tightening the bolts of an outdated system…but perhaps might take this to get to the next phase…
from tom bandy
I think the first wave for for-profit Christian community will be businesses related to the food, recreation, or entertainment industry.
They will be holistic about health; very clear about core values and beliefs as expectation on their staff (servers, waiters, etc) and expectations for their customers; they will easily morph into after-hours worship opportunities; they will train staff to be mentors and interact with the customers; they will probably be big into producing or sharing Christian resources.
I think another wave of for-profit Christian community will be retail products. The most obvious will be book, videos, CD, and other resources. But this is not your classic Christian book store ... this is a Christian COMMUNITY that is organized around a certain product. The expectations on employees will be very different, which means people will be hired and fired for non-traditional reasons. These organizations will have to be very up front and careful about hiring practices to avoid misunderstanding or litigation.
From a Participant
Bill said:
Phil, many are saying this is one of the waves of the postmodern world. It is certainly more like what they did in the NT. Measuring it is a Modernity thing. Postmoderns dont need to measure, just share the good news. let the seeds fall where they may and God will do the harvest.
Then I am defiantly a modern…because I am not going to spend my time or money in a place that is not effective…I need to be able to measure that success…I have learned to many times that things people report are not the reality of the situation…
I am not saying control and high structure...but there has to be a measurable success in the resources…I want to be a good steward of my time and resource…and know that the talents God gives me is not going to the swine’s but being used the best way it can for the kingdom…
Even the book Shaping is using old business models that have been in place since the nineties…it is old school thought…It will be interesting to see what the church looks like when the post modern generation gets to its forties…
From a participant
I am reading through the shaping of things to come book.
And I will post several things on the book but I was amazed that it started out with a gathering or art festival called “Burning Man” it compared this event to the church. I was not able to make the connection but I knew it was important since they used it as a starting point.
I love your curiousity.
I think it was trying to say that the church is not set up to connect with these people…
Correct
It listed several reasons why this one year event was powerful compared to the church…which again I am concerned with someone pulling off an annual event and comparing that to a church that operates 24/7… but this is what the book listed as the reasons why burning man was powerful…
Belonging: that you come as you are
Empowerment: that everyone participates
Sensuality: Again a community connection
Celebration: A common celebration
Liminality: Everyone takes their experience with them…but they return back to their normal lives to embark on a different journey...it is a in between time…or a break from the pressures of life…only to return back to the life they left behind…
I was intrigued with the latter portion Liminality…I am wondering how applications fits in with this dynamic…and if there is a value in this when it comes to the church.
the point here is that much of what people call life today is really not life, not the abundant kind of life Jesus came to bring. So they have to have a week once a year to abandone their sorry lives. In a way Madre Gra is the same. sorry for the spelling.
From bill easum
a message dated 3/29/2005 2:38:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, from a particpant
I am curious to know how we view buildings in ministry. As some of you know I am a mega church guy. I see the value in large churches and the buildings we build. I understand that more money could go to mission without the buildings…but I think people that make this argument or those who are not of this type of culture… misread the mission that occurs within the buildings.
Our buildings lend too many community events that do not even include Christians but allow me to speak of our faith in creative ways in arenas I would normally not have.
The book Shaping lists this as a negative… I think…and was looking for discussion on this
Phil, there is some evidence that points to the fact that house churches and small groups result in more christians than all of the mega churches combined. The evidence is not scientific nor quantifiable. It is just the best guess of some very knowledgeable people including me.
However, that is not to say that mega churches arent going to be around for awhile. I think there is room for both and that the postmodern world will be filled with the double ring Sweet talks about, in this case very large churches and very small churches. the difference between this century and the next is that there will be fewer really big churches, but they will be bigger and the small churches will be healthly and vibrant whereas most small churches arent today. I think churches the size of skyline with either grow beyond 10,000 or decline. that is what Im beginning to see now.
From bill easum
In a message dated 3/29/2005 2:45:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, from a particpant
have two points to this…first it is intriguing on the business being the church. A friend of mine started a fenicing company in Katy, Texas…a fencing company with swords not nails…and it reaches a lot of kids in the neighborhood. He said it is his church. I was not hip on the idea but he says it is his ministry and church…and it is growing by leaps and bounds…
I am interested to know are we going to judge these places like we do our own churches…with the amount of salvations and adult baptisms…and what do you think about the concept…???
Phil, many are saying this is one of the waves of the postmodern world. It is certainly more like what they did in the NT. Measuring it is a Modernity thing. Postmoderns dont need to measure, just share the good news. let the seeds fall where they may and God will do the harvest.
From Bill Easum
In a message dated 3/29/2005 5:45:28 PM Eastern Standard Timefrom a participant
I am interested to know are we going to judge these places like we do our own churches…with the amount of salvations and adult baptisms…and what do you think about the concept…???
Phill:
I have argued for some time that "Christian for-profit" is a major emerging form of Christian community. As far as I can see, there is no reason why baptism, discipling, faith sharing, and every other benefit of Christian community cannot happen in the context of a for-profit organization. The biggest shift is the understanding the work life and mission life, private life and corporate life, merge into a seamless experience.
Phil., Tom and I talked aobut this in Growing SPiritual Redwoods. Spiritual life and spiritual calling are parts of ones everyday life at home, work, and play. SO it stands to reason that ministry can happen at work.
From bill easum
In a message dated 3/30/2005 7:40:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, from a participant:
GW: Bill, this is a fundamental underlying point of the book, isn't it. The whole discussion about churches opening businesses also points to the huge point they make: moving from being attractional to being incarnational. House churches and small groups are incarnational, whereas, the rest of us are largely attractional. Churches moving into viable business situations are incarnational when they do it simply to become a part of the lives of the people around them.
house churches can also be attractional at least to some degree. where house churches break down is that they dont invite people to join them. that makes them attractional, not incarnational. this book goes beyond house churches to the actual workplace. Tom has been talking about this for some time. It is very NT.
You see what I mean about the radical nature of this book. It goes beyond churches, housee churches, cell groups, etc. to the actual workplace.
From Bill Easum
In a message dated 3/30/2005 8:40:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, from a participant
=I am afraid I do not have as much confindance as you do in the smaller churches becoming healthier anytime soon. Most are very old and have a membership or attendance of 100 or less…there are some great leaders out there…but the environment they find themselves in is killing them…
Im not talking about existing small churches. Im talking about those like Solomons portch which by its very nature will never become large. Most of the small churches Im talking about havent been planted yet.
Maybe if the mega churches change their movment and begin to plant smaller churches some of that could change…but even in the book Shaping of things to come they says planting is failing as well…
Yes I saw that about church planting and I dont agree. the guy is basing that on old data. MOre churches are b eing planted now than ever before in the hsitory of Christianity. They just arent being done by denominations.
Even Leadnet.org and crew have abandoned the planting phase and investing in multi-site venues…which is probably the new role of mega churches…
Yes, multi site is the new mega church. Ive said that in several articles. b ut church planting is producing for more locations and baptisms.
I don’t see the mega church as declining but perhaps as monolplizing…
The number of mega churches peaked in 1999. Now you see the big getting b igger. thats why I think those around 3000-4000 will suffer over the next decade as the big get bigger and those in the middle get squeezed.
(a dark cloud is forming): The evil thing in my head is screaming “We could take the church and merge it with others until we all work for twenty to fifty huge churches that are just multiplying…(my business mind is drooling at the thought) We could go to wall street and be traded…:0
Keep drooling and theyll think you are crazy. but then you would be in good company
(the cloud lifts): Ok I am back…Again this is old school thinking…multi site…it is just tightening the bolts of an outdated system…but perhaps might take this to get to the next phase…
Yes, you have the right point here. totally
From Bill Easum
In a message dated 3/30/2005 8:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, from a particpant
Bill Easum writes:
"there is some evidence that points to the fact that house churches and small groups result in more christians than all of the mega churches combined."
GW: Bill, this is a fundamental underlying point of the book, isn't it. The whole discussion about churches opening businesses also points to the huge point they make: moving from being attractional to being incarnational. House churches and small groups are incarnational, whereas, the rest of us are largely attractional. Churches moving into viable business situations are incarnational when they do it simply to become a part of the lives of the people around them.
I am totally understanding what you said when you posted "wait until you get to the rest of the book." It's an adventure that leads somewhere.
From a participant
Not there yet…a business is both…it has to be…the church is both as well…there is nothing new in the thinking of connecting with the people you reach…
If you own a boat shop…you are in that culture…but you have to be attractional as well…because the business does not survive…
Let’s not kid ourselves…in business there is marketing…funding…capital…credit…fiscal spending…leadership development…growth and pains of growth…rent or owing of buildings…whether it is the church or not
The church has to be the same…you have to connect with those you are trying to reach…but you have to be attractional as well…I do not see a VS there…I see a marrying!
PHil. what you are missing is that many non-believers will no longer come to a church no matter how attractional your are. whereas they will go into your friends music shop to buy music. that is the big difference.
From a participant
Bill Easum writes:
"You see what I mean about the radical nature of this book. It goes beyond churches, housee churches, cell groups, etc. to the actual workplace."
GW: I'm learning with every page. So far, I see that they're taking it even beyond the actual workplace to what happens in every aspect of our lives, being totally 360 degrees incarnational. My comments after reading the first chapter are holding true to each subsequent chapter - it falls in line with what you and Tom have been saying. Without the foundation of learning from you all, coupled with what's always been in my heart, this book wouldn't be making as much sense and triggering as much thought in my mind as it is. Images in my mind are starting to get better focused.
Greg Wack
----- Original
from bill easum
In a message dated 3/30/2005 9:22:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, from a participant
Bill said:
Phil, many are saying this is one of the waves of the postmodern world. It is certainly more like what they did in the NT. Measuring it is a Modernity thing. Postmoderns dont need to measure, just share the good news. let the seeds fall where they may and God will do the harvest.
Then I am defiantly a modern…because I am not going to spend my time or money in a place that is not effective…I need to be able to measure that success…I have learned to many times that things people report are not the reality of the situation…
You just told us about the guy who was having many confessions of faith in his music business. isnt that measureable
From a participant
Yes but you said the thought of postmodern was not to measure and to have the seeds fall where they may…I would say the book store owner not music…was a modern seeing how effective he could be when following his call…a risk taker but very purposeful about what he does.
That is why I said how do we measure success of these new churches…the ones that are not structured with what we see as normal church…I think he is measurable in salvation…but what about baptism and where do they go for growth…is the business suppose to supply that…or how do you teach of our faith…????
The same way Jesus did. He didnt count the sheep. he did his thing even at the Wedding at Cana. Measuring is okay but it is not at the heart of Christianity. Winning the world is. That impossible to measure. The goal isnt to measure but to proclaim Jesus and to share ones faith. Jesus taught through conversation. He didnt have a syllabus or a course. He was the curriculum. Thats what we must do.