Clarification

From a member of our advanced listserv (2004). To join click here


First, we're curious about your comments concerning what the pastor does to "cover the bases." Unless we've misread your thoughts as communicated in the books, in the "Joining Jesus" seminar and video tapes, what we are hearing in your comments "sounds" contrary to what we've studied. Granted, our primary sources have been limited to Redwoods and Bandy's Moving Off the Map. We are currently studying Unfreezing Moves and the concept seems consistent. It sounds like you're advocating a kind of pastor dependency. I'm sure there are presuppositions you are working with that we probably need to hear so that we can get on the same page. Since Tuesday, and again today, the e-dialogue has been pretty active about this. I've got a meeting this afternoon, but one (or possibly two) of our leaders plan to talk to Tom about this issue this afternoon. Are we misreading you? The particular issue is raised when you said: "For example: when I was a solo pastor until I could raise up someone to lead a core ministry, I lead it." In our context, I am the lead (and currently ONLY) pastor. I DO lead a ministry (worship/music ministry) that I have had a difficult time raising up leaders to take over. Am I supposed to also lead a teen Bible study, plan youth activities, do children's church and some kind of mid-week ministry for kids? (Understand, I'm just looking for clarification. I really don't think - or at least HOPE - you don't mean that.) I have worked with a children's ministry team that is frustrated. I've also mentored a youth leader (actually SEVERAL youth leaders). The last one, who seemed perfectly suited, had to resign because he took a second job (with UPS) that occupies his evenings and weekends. I can't be everywhere at once and our ministry base is still embryonic.

Response from Bill Easum

The answer is yes and no. When I was the only paid staff member, I felt responsible to make sure everything that I thought was crucial or core was covered.  In some cases that meant I did it like you are doing the worship/music ministry. In other cases it meant spending hours finding someone who I could talk into doing the job even if it was for a short time so I could find the gifted and called person to do it.
It also meant that at one point I was leading the youth, the adult bible study, and  took responsibility for Vacation Bible study because there wasn’t any children or leaders.  Out of that experience a woman came forward to take responsibility for the children’s Sunday school and another to do the nursery. This is very normal in the early stages.  If the truth be known Rick Warren was over all of the bases when he first started Saddleback. I remember a comment from Wayne Cordeiro at New Hope Oahu (six years old and 10,000 in worship now). Wayne said that he left his wife and children at their former church the first six months that he started New Hope because he knew it would be a 100 hour a week job for the first six month. But now Wayne only works with four people total.

The key here is that one doesn’t continue to do this on and on. I did it for about 8 months, Wayne for about six. I have heard of others who had it done in a month.  I found someone real quick to do the children, then the youth, and then the adults. Only one of these were paid.  The first person I paid was the worship/music person.

Keep in mind that I wouldn’t consider children’s church crucial, but I would a nursery and something for the kids, which I guess could be children’s church.  In other words, someone has to make the call of what is crucial and I think that should be the lead pastor.

Response from Sender

Second, is the idea that making sure the bases are covered seems to mean hiring staff to oversee them. Again, are we hearing a contradiction here? We think we know what you mean when you say the lead pastor needs "to monitor the core ministries and insure that they are staffed." But if that means hiring staff, are we perpetuating a "clergy dependence"? Again, I think I know what your answer to that is going to be, i.e. the staff are merely facilitators/coaches/midwives, etc. But just to be clear, would you please clarify that?

Response from Bill Easum

Staff to me hardly ever means clergy.  A church of 800 in worship doesn’t need more than one or two clergy.  In Unfreezing moves I talk about paid and unpaid staff.  But when I use staff I seldom if every mean clergy and when I do I will specify it.  And yes, staff are midwives, but you don’t have to be clergy to do that.

Response back

The transition we have gone through is like so many you've seen and described. Perhaps it is a testament to my lack of ability, but we're struggling to move people toward service. We're still bumping our heads against the old lack of interest, passion and initiative. People appear reticent even when recruited to join a team. Granted, we're still learning how to do that. But we seem to be having the same problems now in a permission-giving environment that we had before in a "top-down" structure which was the modus operandi before we began this transition over two years ago. From our point of view, the problem is primarily spiritual, not functional. As I've heard you say in a variety of contexts, the permission-giving model is not how we were trained. I'm 40 and have been in ministry for almost 20 years - 10 of that in the church I now pastor (which is my first senior/lead pastoral assignment). This is all still new to me. But I believe in it. We've seen the difference despite the struggles we've had. A few weeks ago, we received four new Christians into membership. I know that doesn't sound like much, but compared to where we were as a congregation, it's a big deal. They were individuals who were "walked into the church" by our people. They are living examples of what you and Tom have been saying. Nevertheless, we (and especially I) feel like fish out of water when it comes to implementing a permission-giving structure.

From Bill Easum

In Unfreezing Moves I talk about going through Sphere Two and either the conflict or the confusion that always arises.  What you are feeling is normal. One other comment.  The permission giving model will get easier the more new Christians you bring into the church because it will be natural for them.  

Personally, embracing the Redwoods model has revolutionized my life and ministry. The changes in me have tracked with what you and Tom have spelled out. Though I still fight the demons of career vs. calling (as well as others), I have staked my future as a Nazarene minister on the "EBA" paradigms, not because of you (no offense) but because I think you're right. And so has the leadership of our church. That right there is why it's important for us to be sure we're hearing you right. I know you know (Tom told me so at the Jesus conference here in DFW last September) that Nazarene's are having a difficult time with the stuff you guys are preaching. Personal experience bears that out. Hopefully that will change. Nevertheless, we feel as though we're being watched right now. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to our reasons for going through this transition. But it does motivate us to make sure we're doing it correctly. I hope that makes sense.